How do you think the WTB&TS (and the average JW) would answer the following two questions? How would you answer them?
(1) Can one be a genuine Christian without being a JW?
(2) Can one be an "exemplary" JW without being a genuine Christian?
Rufus T. Firefly
JoinedPosts by Rufus T. Firefly
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Two questions to make one think
by Rufus T. Firefly inhow do you think the wtb&ts (and the average jw) would answer the following two questions?
how would you answer them?.
(1) can one be a genuine christian without being a jw?.
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A question for those still active as JWs
by Rufus T. Firefly infrom the sept. 15, 1981 watchtower, p. 23, par.
a person might renounce his place in the christian congregation by his actions, such as by becoming part of an organization whose objective is contrary to the bible, and, hence, is under judgment by jehovah god.
so if one who was a christian chose to join those who are disapproved of god, it would be fitting for the congregation to acknowledge by a brief announcement that he had disassociated himself and is no longer one of jehovahs witnesses.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
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Rufus T. Firefly
From the Sept. 15, 1981 Watchtower, p. 23, par. 15:
“A person might renounce his place in the Christian congregation by his actions, such as by becoming part of an organization whose objective is contrary to the Bible, and, hence, is under judgment by Jehovah God. So if one who was a Christian chose to join those who are disapproved of God, it would be fitting for the congregation to acknowledge by a brief announcement that he had disassociated himself and is no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.”
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From the Jan. 1, 1979, Watchtower, p. 31:
“In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. . . Hence, for one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called “Christian” association would amount to apostasy.”
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From the June 1, 1991, Watchtower, p. 17, pars. 9-11:
“9. Today, Jehovah’s Witnesses warn that a flood of executional armies will soon sweep over Christendom. Moreover, they point to the true place of refuge from that flood. They quote Isaiah 28:16, which says: “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: ‘Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a stone, a tried stone, the precious corner of a sure foundation. No one exercising faith will get panicky.’” Who is this ‘precious cornerstone’? The apostle Peter quoted these words and applied them to Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:6) If Christendom had sought peace with Jehovah’s King, Jesus Christ, then she would have avoided the coming flash flood.—Compare Luke 19:42-44.
“10. However, she has not done so. Instead, in her quest for peace and security, she insinuates herself into the favor of the political leaders of the nations—this despite the Bible’s warning that friendship with the world is enmity with God. (James 4:4) Moreover, in 1919 she strongly advocated the League of Nations as man’s best hope for peace. Since 1945 she has put her hope in the United Nations. (Compare Revelation 17:3, 11.) How extensive is her involvement with this organization?
“11. A recent book gives an idea when it states: ‘No less than twenty-four Catholic organizations are represented at the UN. Several of the world’s religious leaders have visited the international organization. Most memorable were the visits of His Holiness Pope Paul VI during the General Assembly in 1965 and of Pope John Paul II in 1979. Many religions have special invocations, prayers, hymns and services for the United Nations. The most important examples are those of the Catholic, the Unitarian-Universalist, the Baptist and the Bahai faiths.’”
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The “recent book” mentioned in paragraph 11 above is New Genesis: Shaping a Global Spirituality by Robert Muller. The sentence immediately preceding the quoted portion of Muller’s book reported: “All major world religions are accredited to the United Nations as non-governmental organizations.”
Clearly, the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society (WTBTS) denounced all religious organizations which had registered with the United Nations (UN) as non-governmental organizations (NGO), suggesting that such organizations are deserving of execution by God at Armageddon. Yet, in that same year of 1991, the WTBTS, itself, registered with the UN as an NGO.
The WTBTS presumed to set the standard for individual Christians of what constitutes apostasy from the true Christian faith and then callously violated that standard by voluntarily registering with the UN as an NGO and acting essentially as publicity agents for the UN from 1992 to 2001. As awareness of this duplicity on the part of the WTBTS and the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses spreads, conscientious Christians are leaving the organization in large numbers. Still, the WTBTS has yet to offer a public explanation for its curious action in this regard.
In view of the foregoing, would a conscientious Christian be justified in viewing the WTBTS and the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses as apostate organizations? If not, why not?
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How do I help someone who is manic-depressive?
by skeeter1 insomeone close to me is a jw, and manic -depressive (or so i think).. for several decades, this person has way overspent.
to the point of not having $50 at the end of the week.
he makes decent money (about $1,000 a week), lives at home (no real living expenses), and no dependents.
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Rufus T. Firefly
I hate being bi-polar. It's AWESOME!
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Another elder came and told me I'm not an apostate and no-one can judge me.
by Julia Orwell ini'll call him bear, like teddy bear because he's big and nice.
bear's the coboe, an intelligent but jittery man who suffers from a host of anxiety disorders.
he 'just happened' to be driving down my street after the group, and 'just happened' to notice i was at home, tending to some animals.
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Rufus T. Firefly
Julia, pardon me if I missed these details, but were you and Bear alone together when this exchange took place, and did this occur inside or outside of your home?
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My experience today
by leaving_quietly indiscussion with wife today led to her questioning whether i believe or not.
i told her that i just can't roll over and accept everything new thing they say just like that.
we were, of course, talking about the "new light".
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Rufus T. Firefly
Thank you, leaving_quietly, and rest assured of my empathy for your situation. As far as I am concerned, JW dogma consists of many issues that do not amount to a hill of beans. Did Jesus die on a cross or on a stake? Are Michael and Jesus different names for the same being? Is the number 144,000 literal or symbolic? The list goes on, and on, and on. In the final analysis, these are arguments that cannot be won. So, for me the final straw was the fact that unless one blindly submits to the current view of the so-called "faithful and discreet slave," or the current view of one's local elder body, one is subject to being labeled an apostate and treated the same as an unrepentant wrongdoer or as one who has rejected the good news about the Christ. This fact, more than any specific disagreement over doctrine, led to my decision to become inactive and to fade away as a JW.
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Apostacitis
by Rufus T. Firefly inapostacitis is a term denoting a condition with which the watchtower society has become thoroughly infected, particularly since the year 1981 when sincere christians who merely resigned from the organization over principled differences in belief became viewed the same as unrepentant wrongdoers (1 cor.
5:11) and as those rejecting the good news about the christ (2 john 9-11).
there was a time when news of one becoming an apostate was so rare among witnesses that it sent shockwaves throughout the organization.
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Rufus T. Firefly
OUBLETTE: Out of curiousity, what was "the particular viewpoint" about?
In his #3 talk on the Ministry School, David related that a young man told a JW, "I would like to become a JW, but I am a homosexual, and homosexuals cannot become JWs." The JW replied, "You might be surprised how many of JWs *are* homosexual. The issue is not one's sexual orientation but whether one will submit to God's view of fornication, which is, 'Flee from fornication.' (1 Cor. 6:18)" For the "theocratic" basis for the JW's response, read on.
“It is interesting that, according to dictionary definitions, homosexuality includes sexual DESIRE for others of one’s own sex. Yet the Bible makes a distinction between the practice of what is bad and sinful desires or tendencies. These desires may be present despite determined efforts to eradicate them from mind and body. Because of their earlier life environment, and perhaps other factors, we may have Christian brothers and sisters who from time to time have the urge for sexual relations with members of their own sex. But they fight that unnatural, Satan-inspired desire—and they do not give in to it. So they are not practicing homosexuals. They get control of their thinking, knowing that wrong desire that is allowed to grow fertile is bound to express itself in wrong acts.—James 1:14, 15; Colossians 3:5-10.
What is condemned by God in the Bible, and is a disfellowshipping offense, is the “erotic activity,” or ‘sexual behavior,’ directed toward another person of one’s own sex.” (From the June 1, 1983 Watchtower, page 25, under heading “What Is Homosexuality?”)
Like the term ‘heterosexual,’ the term ‘homosexual’ primarily denotes inclination or orientation rather than behavior. Thus, a heterosexual who remains chaste is nonetheless heterosexual in inclination or orientation. Likewise, a homosexual who remains chaste (by remaining celibate or by marrying in a heterosexual union) is nonetheless homosexual in inclination or orientation. Some cling to the homophobic notion that one is homosexual who actively engages in homosexual fornication.
“When the Bible condemns fornication, it is referring to both homosexual and heterosexual conduct. . . Christians are not homophobic.” (From the article How Can I Explain the Bible’s View of Homosexuality? in the December 2010 AWAKE!)
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Apostacitis
by Rufus T. Firefly inapostacitis is a term denoting a condition with which the watchtower society has become thoroughly infected, particularly since the year 1981 when sincere christians who merely resigned from the organization over principled differences in belief became viewed the same as unrepentant wrongdoers (1 cor.
5:11) and as those rejecting the good news about the christ (2 john 9-11).
there was a time when news of one becoming an apostate was so rare among witnesses that it sent shockwaves throughout the organization.
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Rufus T. Firefly
"Does David also go by the name of Rufus T. Firefly?"
Yes, he does.
"Welcome!"
Thank you.
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Apostacitis
by Rufus T. Firefly inapostacitis is a term denoting a condition with which the watchtower society has become thoroughly infected, particularly since the year 1981 when sincere christians who merely resigned from the organization over principled differences in belief became viewed the same as unrepentant wrongdoers (1 cor.
5:11) and as those rejecting the good news about the christ (2 john 9-11).
there was a time when news of one becoming an apostate was so rare among witnesses that it sent shockwaves throughout the organization.
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Rufus T. Firefly
‘Apostacitis’ is a term denoting a condition with which the Watchtower Society has become thoroughly infected, particularly since the year 1981 when sincere Christians who merely resigned from the organization over principled differences in belief became viewed the same as unrepentant wrongdoers (1 Cor. 5:11) and as those rejecting the good news about the Christ (2 John 9-11).
There was a time when news of one becoming an apostate was so rare among Witnesses that it sent shockwaves throughout the organization. However, since the mass expulsion of exemplary Christians from Bethel who dared to express sincere questions in private discussions, including Ray Franz, Edward Dunlap and Rene and Elsie Vazquez, the term apostate is tossed about so casually among Witnesses that it is downright alarming!
A certain devout JW, whom we’ll call David, once heard a rumor that his older brother, a longtime elder, was “practically an apostate.” About that time, the older brother’s family moved their publisher cards to another congregation where they continue as approved Witnesses to this day. With greater frequency David began to hear other Witnesses casually relating tales of former acquaintances becoming apostate, and he couldn’t help but wonder what was going on. Suddenly, David found himself in danger of being labeled an apostate by his local elders simply because he expressed a point of view in an assigned talk on the Ministry School which has been championed in Watchtower publications from 1983 down to today. In fact, it was after the particular point of view was confirmed in a letter from the US Branch office that David’s local elders informed him that he would be considered an apostate if he continued to express the viewpoint to others in the congregation. That’s right! The elders rejected the letter from the Branch! What’s more, the particular viewpoint David had expressed was not even a doctrinal matter!
David reasoned that if he could be labeled an apostate so easily, how many others had been unjustly judged to be apostates in the past. He ultimately thought of Raymond Franz, and it was then that he purchased and read Crisis of Conscience. David was stunned to learn how closely Franz’s experience mirrored his own. It was then that David determined to quietly fade away from the organization, even though his wife and the greater number of both of their families remain active. It wasn’t long until David found this discussion board, and he delights to read posts by others who have become soured on the organization but not on God, on Christ, or on God’s Word.
David says he feels like a 60-year old child who has just learned that there really is no Santa Claus.
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Baptism of a chid and an elder's response to my objection
by never a jw ini just learned that an 11 year old kid is taking the questions for baptism.
as soon as his father finished tellig me this, i told him that he should make his son wait, but he responded that he couldn't go against jehovah' spirit.
i gave the guy a break because he is the uneducated and naive immigrant who puts his heart, not his mind, into the religion.
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Rufus T. Firefly
Oh, and to 'never a jw': Good for you!
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Baptism of a chid and an elder's response to my objection
by never a jw ini just learned that an 11 year old kid is taking the questions for baptism.
as soon as his father finished tellig me this, i told him that he should make his son wait, but he responded that he couldn't go against jehovah' spirit.
i gave the guy a break because he is the uneducated and naive immigrant who puts his heart, not his mind, into the religion.
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Rufus T. Firefly
Yes, Crazyguy, Jesus set the example for Christian baptism. The organization also claims to adhere to the pattern of the first-century congregation, except on the matter of baptism. Read on:
"Regarding first-century Christians, historian Augustus Neander states in his book General History of the Christian Religion and Church: 'Baptism was administered at first only to adults, as men were accustomed to conceive baptism and faith as strictly connected.' ” (Watchtower 4/1/06, page 27)